System Setting Issues or Battery Issue?

Discussion about the MX60 Charge Controller

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System Setting Issues or Battery Issue?

Postby asolarpc on Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:01 pm

Hi,

Attached is an Excel workbook(a collection of spreadsheets) with multiple tabs (multiple spreadsheets) that contains a tremendous amount of data that overwhelms most people. However, if the data is reviewed individually, i.e., one tab/spreadsheet at a time, understood and then reviewed as a whole, I believe it will shed some insight on my issue.

My issue is my generator runs every morning and I do not like that, and hence I do not want that, I believe a properly designed off-grid house will only have the generator run as a true back-up, with the PV system supplying all needed power.

My request is to have users of this forum spend some time to determine if there is an issue with my inverter or charge controller settings, and to see if I can get by without having to buy a new set of batteries. At this point, I believe, after consulting my trusted solar installer, that I have used the complete life-cycle of my batteries and it is just time to replace. I am not ready to admit that, although I am close. My neighbor and good friend came down to my house tonight and we once again used a multi-meter on the batteries and they all seemed to read good. However, he seems to think there is something odd about the readings on the charge controllers, specifically the amount of kWh shown on each of the three charge controllers. He believes this is odd when comparing my system of 5.3kW to his system of 4.4kW. As an example, his system shows the following kWh for the past few days:: 22.2, 17.8, 22.4, 22.6, 23.0, and 14.6. All three of my charge controllers when added together show a range from from 2.4 - 4.6. Why would mine be so low when my system is larger?

IN the evenings, my Trimetric on the all in the house shows 5.x - 51.x v every night about 9 - 10 pm. About 5:30 am when we wake up, after having gone to bed about 10:30 - 11:00 pm, the Trimetric shows a voltage reading of 48.6 - 49.0. However, after waking up, the coffee pot, microwave, hairdryers, and showers get used and the power drops below the auto start generator settings on the inverters and therefore the generator starts ..every morning. I am going to lower the generator auto start settings but that still leaves the issue as to the batteries going so low as to require the generator to start.

Is it the batteries? Is there a setting issue on the inverters or the charge controllers? Is there a faulty inverter or charge controller? Is there a combination issue. Is the battery bank too small for our power usage?

Can anyone help figure out what the data means? edited to remove my conspiracy comment. It did not add to this discussion.

Thanks for the help!
Attachments
Charge Controller Log.xlsx
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Last edited by asolarpc on Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: System Setting Issues or Battery Issue?

Postby SandyP on Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:53 pm

A lot of data to look at however, one thing that jumps out is the lack of total Absorb time on the charge controller logs with multiple cases of days with zero absorb time but hours of float time.

My suggestion is to get this issue sorted out as it could well be the source of your problem as your battery bank is never getting to 100% SoC (under charged batteries).
You may have to look at doing some equalisation charges sooner rather than later.

What is the load ( in amps) on your system when the low battery cut out occurs?
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Re: System Setting Issues or Battery Issue?

Postby JRHill on Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:51 pm

When you check the batteries with your hydrometer what are the readings?

Eh, sorry, saw you're running AGMs. Hopefully some folks more familiar with them and relevant settings can help.
Last edited by JRHill on Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: System Setting Issues or Battery Issue?

Postby SandyP on Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:56 pm

JRHill wrote:When you check the batteries with your hydrometer what are the readings?


His current batteries are AGM.
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Re: System Setting Issues or Battery Issue?

Postby blackswan555 on Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:01 am

As Sandy says, You seem not to be getting much absorb time, around 4 hrs would be a more reasonable number to see, Check your absorb time setting,
Also Amps do seem low, You may want to look at what is being produced mid afternoon on a good Sun day, Batteries fully charged, Go into house and turn some things on eg shower I presume is being pumped or something like, Then see if panels / Charge controllers have ramped up to try to compensate, ( bad batteries will not "want" much charge, But if solar still ramps up as designed, that side is ok)

But as your installer says, I think it is not going to be long before you are going to need replacement, looking at you figures, You are driving them fairly hard, 4.5 years is good for a set of AGMs

One last resort is to attempt a conditioning charge, (it is like an EQ, but not an EQ :smile: ) Sun mention its voltage on their site,
Initial charge or recharge - 2.37 to 2.40 volts per cell at 25° C (77° F). Float charge - 2.20 to 2.23 volts per cell at 25° C (77° F). Conditioning charge - 2.58 volts per cell at 25° C (77° F). Temperature compensation - 4.00 mV. per cell per degree C [Reference to 25° C (77° F)]. This is for battery temperature (not ambient temperature) and is useful for battery temperatures from 0° C to 40° C. Contact Concorde Battery Corporation for temperatures that exceed this range.
And this site describes what it is a little better http://lifelinebatteries.com/2015/10/ca ... batteries/ One thing to watch closely is battery temperature if you (or installer) do try conditioning, Over temp may cause a nasty mess :smile:

Tim
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Re: System Setting Issues or Battery Issue?

Postby SandyP on Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:19 am

Ignore the bloody spammer (yes you luminoueshop!).

Another test you could try is to measure the voltage of each of your 2V batteries when the system is in float and has a stable/constant voltage (ie do not allow large loads to be turned on/off).

Ideally, when in float, you should see very little variation in voltage between each battery - my battery manufacturer of VRLA GEL cells says variation of only - 0.1V to +0.2V is acceptable otherwise a conditioning/equalisation charge is required.
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Re: System Setting Issues or Battery Issue?

Postby Mike Curran on Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:59 pm

Here's the odd settings that I see:

1. On your charge controller, your rebulk voltage is set higher than your float voltage (rebulk = 54.5, float = 53.6). I don't see how you ever get down to Float with those settings;

2. On your inverters, your sell voltage is set the same as float. Normally that's, we'll, normal. But if your inverters don't have a way to allow your system to go to the absorb stage - in effect, bypass the sell setting until an absorb cycle is accomplished - then you will never go into absorb. I know you're off grid but it wouldn't hurt to set your sell voltages really high to avoid any nonsense behavior from your inverters.

Like SandyP says, your data logs don't show much absorb time at all. I saw one day on your Casita array CC where you had 3 hrs of absorb time (November 3) but 0 hours for one week before that day, and one week after. Was that the only sunny day in that stretch? Were you absent from the house that day so no loads to prevent absorb from happening? Those kinds of anomalies need looking into (or maybe I missed something else).
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Re: System Setting Issues or Battery Issue?

Postby SandyP on Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:14 pm

asolarpc wrote:....., and if there is an issue that goes uncorrected, then another set of batteries a few years down the road. ......

Yes, given the multiple upgrades that have been done there is the risk that "an issue" has developed.

Your detailed records of the hardware and charging records should make it easy for a solar system professional to diagnose the problem however from my amateur knowledge the biggest anomaly is why your charge controllers (CCs) seem to be skipping the absorb phase and going into float. You need to find out why this is occurring asap.

I tried to find posts about issues of multiple charge controllers in a single system causing problems but it appears as long as each of the CCs is seeing the same battery bank voltage then they should all function together.
Maybe there is an issue as to how the CCs are wired into the battery bank - do you have a diagram of how your system is wired?
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Re: System Setting Issues or Battery Issue?

Postby sodamo on Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:44 pm

Might want to check the voltage calibration at each CC.
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Re: System Setting Issues or Battery Issue?

Postby asolarpc on Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:16 pm

HI,

First, thank you all for the thoughts and suggestions,

SandyP: I do not have a diagram of how the system is wired but I can do that this weekend. I believe you are asking what the load in amps is when the generator starts, and not really what it is at Low Battery Cut Out (LBCO), since LBCO is set at 44.0 on the inverters. I happened to be awakened from a sound sleep this morning by my wife with an out of the blue loud statement "it is quarter to 5!" and my reply was "what is your point?????" Anyway, I was up very soon after that while she slept. LOL I watched the Trimetric and the load in amps was fairly stable at 6.1 amps. When I used the microwave to heat some coffee it jumped to 31 amps or so for about 80 seconds and then settled back down to the 6.1 range. A multi-meter was used 6/21/2017 in the middle of the day to test each battery while still fully connected and the readings ranged from (13) at 2.10, (8) at 2.11, (2) at 2.09, and (1) at 2.08 (the last battery in the string). Last night, 12/12/2017 about 7:45 pm a multi-meter was sued again to test the batteries and this time the system breakers were turned off to effectively remove the batteries from the system. There were (12) at 2.21, (9) at 2.20, (2) at 2.19, and (1) at 2.18 (the last battery in the string).

blackswan555: I have done two equalization's since mid-October 2017. Up until that time I had never done an equalization as I had been told AGMs were not to be equalized. In October I figured what the heck as I believe I have used the lifecycle of the AGMS and what would it hurt to equalize them? Buy batteries? I already have that in my head anyway. :( I left the absorb time setting for the time being at 3.0 hours as that is the Concorde recommended setting for their AGMs. Do you think I should still bump it up to 4 hours? I will try your test about running something in the middle of a sunny day to see what is being produced this coming weekend.

Mike Curran: I believe those days were full-sun days as I cannot remember the last day we have not had full sun. The weather has been just great the last few months. I changed the inverter's setting for the sell voltage to 62.0 as you recommended a higher setting to avoid any possible nonsense occurring with the inverters. I also reduced the rebulk voltage to 51.0 so it is now lower than the the float voltage setting. I left the float voltage set at 53.6 and absorb voltage at 57.6 as those are the Concorde recommended settings for their AGMs.

I had decreased the Generator Auto Start settings to a lower setting, per the local solar installer's recommendations, to see if that would lessen the generator running each morning. I believe it will but it still did run 3 hours this morning so I decreased the time again. When I was watching the Trimetric this morning it said I had 48.1v at 5:10 am. My wife said she saw 48.9v at 1 am when she got up. The generator had yet to start by the time I left the house at 6:30 am for an unusually early start of the work-day for me so it definitely took longer for the low voltage to cause the generator to start this morning. As of right now at 10:16 pm, the Trimetric reads 51.0 and this after 3 hours or so of baking and washing dishes by my daughter and wife.

Again, thanks to everyone and I will update again tomorrow night.
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Re: System Setting Issues or Battery Issue?

Postby blackswan555 on Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:23 am

left the absorb time setting for the time being at 3.0 hours as that is the Concorde recommended setting for their AGMs. Do you think I should still bump it up to 4 hours?
You could do, The problem I am seeing from your numbers is that you are not even getting your 3 hrs at the moment with the CCs going into float too early ? Need to figure that first :smile:

Voltage as indication of SOC or battery condition, Be careful reading too much into Voltages unless the batteries have been disconnected for a minimum of 12hr, Preferably 24, Obviously not an easy task off grid,,,,,,

Battery Temp sensors, Do you have on ALL charge sources ? You need them especially with sealed batteries (I notice what seems to be them on 2 of the 3 CCs, The 255 reading on the one says it does not)

Tim
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Re: System Setting Issues or Battery Issue?

Postby SandyP on Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:10 am

Not entirely the same thing however this topic touches on the fact that the MX60 CCs sometimes have issues with AGM batteries : viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2435

It may also explain why you are often seeing high peak voltage readings on the CC logs?
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Re: System Setting Issues or Battery Issue?

Postby asolarpc on Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:32 am

Blackswan555: Yes, there are battery temp sensors as I requested they be installed and the solar installer charged me for them.

I just woke up at 6:10 am and the Trimetric read 48.2v with a draw of 4.4 amps. You are correct in that getting a better reading in an off-grid house is tough.

I read that other post on the MX-60 and AGM issue and do not understand it one bit. Take the cover off the box, put it in GT mode, etc? Lol...I must admit. ..I know just enough on this topic to get by but rely on the professionals. I use the analogy that a lot of people know how to drive a car but few know how they operate. I know more than that analogy suggests but not much. So, my take-away from that post is there is a programming issue with the MX-60 in regards to AGMs and Outback does not care, understand, or something, to fix it.

Edited this post get rid of the whining and rambling I did initially. :)
Last edited by asolarpc on Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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2 - (12) Kyocera KD210GX-LPU -
3 - (3) Kyocera KD210GX-LPU - 1 string
(2) Zomeworks Trackers
(24) Sun Xtender PVX-9150T 2-volt batteries, 1 string
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Re: System Setting Issues or Battery Issue?

Postby SandyP on Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:00 am

asolarpc wrote:.../...
I just woke up at 6:10 am and the Trimetric read 48.2v with a draw of 4.4 amps. You are correct in that getting a better reading in an off-grid house is tough.../..


With that minor load in the morning your 48.2V reading indicates the state of charge of your battery bank was, at the time of the reading, likely to be around 50%.

As previously mentioned, the key things to do are :

1) Make sure the solar panel array outputs are putting out what they should be,

2) Get the CCs to charge the battery bank with a +3 hour Absorb phase before going into Float.
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Re: System Setting Issues or Battery Issue?

Postby SandyP on Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:07 am

asolarpc wrote:..../...
I read that other post on the MX-60 and AGM issue and do not understand it one bit. ../...


Your spreadsheet says your have 3 x MX-60 charge controllers but your profile shows 3 x FM60s.
Based on the dates of your system upgrades you may have a mix of MX / FMs?
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Outback VFX3024 Inverter/Charger
Victron BMV-602s
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Re: System Setting Issues or Battery Issue?

Postby asolarpc on Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:30 am

SandyP: I wrote it incorrectly on the spreadsheet. I went downstairs and outside to the "power" room and confirmed they are definitely Flexmax 60's, so they are FM60's. Hopefully someone can explain to me what the other post is stating, and what I should do, if anything. Did Outback fix this programming issue? Perhaps I need to consider replacing the three FM60's with different charge controllers. I will check for replies later tonight and hopefully making the setting changes that I did last night will help. So far the generator has not run yet this morning.
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My RE system: 48-volt off-grid
(3) Arrays:
1 - (16) Kyocera KC130TM modules – 4 strings
2 - (12) Kyocera KD210GX-LPU -
3 - (3) Kyocera KD210GX-LPU - 1 string
(2) Zomeworks Trackers
(24) Sun Xtender PVX-9150T 2-volt batteries, 1 string
(2) Trace SW 5548 inverters
(3) Outback FlexMax FM60 Charge Controllers
(1) Kohler 14 RESA Generator

Re: System Setting Issues or Battery Issue?

Postby SandyP on Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:08 pm

I have not read about the FMs having problems with AGM batteries.
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Outback VFX3024 Inverter/Charger
Victron BMV-602s
Honda 5.5kW Genset

Re: System Setting Issues or Battery Issue?

Postby blackswan555 on Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:37 pm

Blackswan555: Yes, there are battery temp sensors as I requested they be installed and the solar installer charged me for them.

I do not think it has anything to do with your missing absorb cycle but for future reference your casita temp sensor is not working, the "255" reading on this "Btmp (reading varies)134 127 255" shows IIRC open circuit, (the numbers are not actual temp, They are data "numbers", There is a chart..... somewhere to translate to C/F)

Tim
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Re: System Setting Issues or Battery Issue?

Postby grinpas on Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:47 pm

I have 12 year in use FX60 CC. I have been using standard Lead Acid batteries and now switching over to AGM. Want to know what changes I need to make on my system.
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Re: System Setting Issues or Battery Issue?

Postby SandyP on Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:30 pm

grinpas wrote:I have 12 year in use FX60 CC. I have been using standard Lead Acid batteries and now switching over to AGM. Want to know what changes I need to make on my system.


Check the charging specifications of your AGM batteries (manufacturers documents or website) as you will likely need to change the absorb and float voltages.
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