another temp sensor question

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another temp sensor question

Postby petertearai on Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:47 am

Page 40 says EQ voltage is not temp compensated.
Page 62 Says Batt too hot menage will be indicated if temp has reached 50deg and fm80 will stop charging.

Will the fm80 stop charging when the temp reaches 50 deg when an equalization is in progress .
Any one know the answer
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Re: another temp sensor question

Postby Jamie on Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:59 am

G'day
My understanding, from the manuals, is that all charging stops if the temp is reached. I would feel more confident to hear from someone who has tested it or seen it work. The flip side of that I would be really disappointed if I allowed my batteries to get that hot.
This reminds me I had another post looking at battery temperature.
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Re: another temp sensor question

Postby petertearai on Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:15 am

Jamie thanks for your reply. Hopefully some one at outBack will know.
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Re: another temp sensor question

Postby petertearai on Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:35 am

Green house computers Battery maint doc says that if you don,t have a temp sensor you may have to manually temp compensate during an equalization. Dose this mean that equalization is temp compensated on my fm80 and will stop if an over temp is reached? ](*,)
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Re: another temp sensor question

Postby tallgirl on Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:01 am

Peter,

The equalization voltage is temperature compensated. I don't know which devices will terminate an EQ cycle in the event the batteries are too hot. It is generally a bad idea to perform a completely unattended equalization. For one thing, you need to take specific gravity readings at a regular interval to determine when the specific gravity has stopped rising. For another thing, you need to monitor the water level to insure that cells doing run low since you must not fill the cells completely full prior to equalization in order to minimize the amount of electrolyte which may try to bubble up and out of the opening.
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Re: another temp sensor question

Postby petertearai on Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:31 pm

Thanks for yor reply.
So during bulk, absorb, and float ,the fm80 will stop charging if temp gets to high, but during an eq not sure?
Regards peter
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Re: another temp sensor question

Postby tallgirl on Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:19 am

Peter,

The equalization voltage =is= temperature compensated as well. What I'm saying is that from a practical standpoint, you don't want to do a "set it and forget it" equalization charge anyway, at least not until you know how the batteries are going to perform. Additionally, you need to be measuring specific gravity at a regular interval to make sure you know when it's completed.
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Re: another temp sensor question

Postby petertearai on Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:40 pm

Thanks .So although not a good idea to leave an equilization ,Thermal runaway would not go past 50 deg as the fm80 would shut down the equilization.
Thanks Peter
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Re: another temp sensor question

Postby SteveHiggins on Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:07 am

Hold on a sec...

Funny thing is internally we too here in the App Engineering and the Tech support groups quite often have discussions about what is temp comped and what isn't.

Sorry to throw a wrench into the discussion!

Just reconfirmed prior to posting.

The FM80 is not temp compensated when it comes to EQ.

The FX/VFX is temp compensated when it come to EQ.
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Re: another temp sensor question

Postby tallgirl on Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:00 am

Steve,

Thanks -- that disagrees with the documentation I read.

Could you get the publications folks to add a section to each device that clearly indicates which settings are temperature compensated? In some instances the only way to know seems to be experimentation with a glass of ice water and a heat gun. In other instances, the temperature compensated values change from one firmware level to another. For example, SellRE is temp compensated in firmware level 75, but not in 76 ...
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Re: another temp sensor question

Postby blackswan555 on Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:37 am

Just to add a bit more confusion, I thought
The FX/VFX is temp compensated when it come to EQ.
Was dependent on mate firmware version ?

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Re: another temp sensor question

Postby petertearai on Wed Mar 16, 2011 12:30 pm

Page 40 of my manual says eq is not temp compesated.Page 62 says batt too hot mesage will be indecated if temp reaches 50 deg c. My Question is ,will the eq stop if temp reaches 50 deg.It would seem that it will stop during a bulk ,Absorb, or float.
Thanks for all replys to date.
Regards
Peter
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Re: another temp sensor question

Postby Vic on Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:58 pm

There may be many variables for those of you who have many OB boxes and such, but regarding weather EQ is temp comped or not, (for those with flooded batteries), observation of the set voltage vs EQ voltage will tell much. Unless, of course, the BTS is reading 25 degrees C.

And for those with flooded batteries, and if the BTS(es) is easily removed from the battery where it is attached, one could carefully heat the BTS(es) during an EQ and see what happens near/above 50 C.

OB programmers must know what is the real answer, but for anyone needing to know the behavior of their exact system, one could run the experiment. [I am a master of the obvious !].

For me, with my MX-60's, I know from obseration, that EQ is NOT Temp Comped, but that was not the question.

And so on, Vic
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Re: another temp sensor question

Postby petertearai on Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:22 pm

Thanks Vic .
Yes I could remove the sensor but this would mean removing 2 batts from the batt box and prising off the sensor. Or buying another sensor to do that test.I thought someone at outback would have the answer at there finger tips?
Regards Peter
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Re: another temp sensor question

Postby petertearai on Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:17 pm

HI The Answer is YES The fm80 will shut down at 50 deg C during both normal charge and EQ charge. Also EQ is not temperature compensated. :grin:
Thanks Steve for the info. :grin:
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Re: another temp sensor question

Postby HawaiianDrummer on Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:28 am

Aloha, So then, isn't the answer dependent on what components you have or do not have connected to your total system, meaning that if only an inverter is used, or an inverter with charge controller(s) is used then independent or co-dependent RTS controlling will take precedent? I don't know anything about it, it's just what somebody told me. Mahalo, David
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Re: another temp sensor question

Postby petertearai on Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:35 am

HawaiianDrummer wrote:Aloha, So then, isn't the answer dependent on what components you have or do not have connected to your total system, meaning that if only an inverter is used, or an inverter with charge controller(s) is used then independent or co-dependent RTS controlling will take precedent? I don't know anything about it, it's just what somebody told me. Mahalo, David

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Kia ora
Now your confusing me.IN My case I only have the fm80.So simple. Once conecting to hubs and so on it may be a new Question.However I'm reassured that I cant get a temp over 50 deg in the batts in my setup.
Yes I agree should ever let them get to 50deg things arn't good,However thermal runaway past 50 is not possible (assuming all running as per design)
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Re: another temp sensor question

Postby HawaiianDrummer on Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:48 pm

aloha, Yes, sorry to confuse the post. My FM60s and FM80 EQ at the full temp set, but I have never watched it long enough to see if it ever comes close to 50C or not to shut the process down. David
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Re: another temp sensor question

Postby HawaiianDrummer on Tue Apr 12, 2011 11:08 pm

Aloha, It has been awhile since my last post, because of cloudy weather here in Ninole, Hawaii on the rainy side of the island, BUT Now to add to MY confusion, after praising the addition of the RTS recently to my system, I now find that when I run the Gen set to aid in battery charging when facing multiple cloudy days, THAT ONLY my largest of 3 arrays add any charging to the batteries.

When manually starting the generator, the mate display CHANGES second by second reading: Charging 1,200 W. /then Charging 900 W./ then Charging 600 W / then Charging 300 W./ then charging 100 W./ then Charging 000 W.?????????

No matter what settings I change, I can NOT get the generator to aid in charging the batteries any more, like it use to do before adding the RTS .

ANY IDEAS TO WHY???

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Re: another temp sensor question

Postby tallgirl on Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:44 am

David,

Tim already responded to this post elsewhere, but for the benefit of other readers, I'll respond here as well.

First, you need to calibrate all of your inverters and charge controllers so the battery voltages are approximately the same at the Absorb voltage. To do that, you'll need to "hide" the report set bars for WattPlot and use the raw data directly from those devices -- which I think for you is 5 or 6 total inverters and charge controllers. There is a "CAL" menu on the Mate under each device's "ADV" menu.

Once you have the battery voltages all being reported more or less accurately (charge controllers can be tweaked 0.1 volts, inverters less accurately -- I think 0.4 volts, as I seem to recall you have a 48 volt system), you need to make a decision -- which charging source dominates?

Each device will reduce the amount of power it is sending to the batteries whenever it reaches "Absorb" -- this is the standard behavior. To make it so the charge controllers "dominate" battery charging, you set their "Absorb" voltage slightly higher than the inverters. When the batteries reach the inverter setting, the charge controllers will try to raise the voltage still further and the inverters will back off all the way. If you set the inverter Absorb voltage higher, the inverters will try to raise the voltage and the charge controllers will back off.
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Re: another temp sensor question

Postby HawaiianDrummer on Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:16 am

Aloha, Thanks TG for your reply and for the other time you and others suggested this calibration. I performed the calibrations as instructed with a very good multimeter 3 times over the past months.
The only settings that may have changed after I added a FM80 charge controller is the Absorb voltage on the Inverters were changed to .4v higher than the 3 charge controllers, then when gen set stopped adding to the picture I set the Absorb voltages equal to the charge controllers.
As you suggest, I will now set the FM60 and FM80 charge controllers Absorb voltage higher than the Inverter charger settings to prioritize them over the Inverters AND see IF this will allow my gen set to add charging when I need the back up over periods of 3 or more mostly cloudy days.
I will update. Mahalo David
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Re: another temp sensor question

Postby tallgirl on Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:48 am

David,

What's really needed is battery voltages and temperature, as well as charging stage, when this is happening. I think you also have a FLEXnet DC (if not, buy one) and the SOC would also be helpful.

My recollection is that you have a lot of charging capacity and you could easily be pushing your batteries into "Absorb", in which case everything would back off, in whatever order the "Absorb" voltages are set -- lowest absorb settings back off first.

The other thing is, even if you don't reach "Absorb" immediately when the generator kicks on, you can very easily zip through the few remaining percent of SOC and then be in "Absorb" if you are pushing a lot of amps. To give you an idea, it takes about 60 amps DC at 80% SOC for my batteries to hit "Absorb". If I'm at 75% with 60 amps, that 5% will take all of 20 or 30 minutes to get me to 80%, at which time I'm in "Absorb". This table will give you an idea of how fast batteries can be charged --

http://julie-world.mooo.com:8080/?batte ... ide&tables

On top of all that, when you are pushing a lot of current into batteries, they warm up, which means the absorption voltage drops.

(Edited to add)

Could you provide the exact make and model of your batteries? You have 415Ah at 48 volts, so you'd reach "Absorb" with about 80% of the current in that table. The 1200 watts you say you started with would be about 20 amps DC, and you wouldn't need much more from your arrays to hit "Absorb". The current needed to stay in "Absorb" falls off very rapidly, as you can see from the "Absorb Amps" row in that table.
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Re: another temp sensor question

Postby HawaiianDrummer on Sun Apr 17, 2011 1:47 am

Aloha, thanks again for your helpful replies. In answer to your last question:

Could you provide the exact make and model of your batteries? You have 415Ah at 48 volts, so you'd reach "Absorb" with about 80% of the current in that table. The 1200 watts you say you started with would be about 20 amps DC, and you wouldn't need much more from your arrays to hit "Absorb". The current needed to stay in "Absorb" falls off very rapidly, as you can see from the "Absorb Amps" row in that table.

The batteries I have are Interstate Workaholics L 16 HCL 415 AH 6 volt batteries, 8 ea. in series for 48V

The pattern I am seeing now on full sunny days is the bulk cycle charges in the ranges of 3.5 KW to 6.6 KW depending on sun to cloud patterns and completes the bulk charging around 9:30 A.M. Then the Absorb cycle starts, with 2 of 3 charge controllers stopping outputs and the 3rd largest array and FM80 do all the Absorb charging starting around 1.2 KW for 3 1/2 hrs then lowers to around 0.840 KW with around 10 A for 2 1/2 hrs, Then goes into Float for 1 to 1/2 hrs each day (unless afternoon clouds move in, which is the normal here.)

Although this seems good most of the time I still find that my hydrometer readings stay midway too long at 1.235 to 1.250 after 5 to 6 hrs of absorb at 59.2 V., RTS compensated to 58.8 V.and most days getting 1 to 1 1/2 hrs float time at 55.8 V.

Today I did find 1 cell out of 24 that had a low hydrometer reading in the red while all others were at 1.250 in the white...
so I used an equalize charge of 62.8 V to bubble the cell for 3 hrs using solar only and the cell came back to rest.

I am hoping to get some consistent days of full sun to make progress on the assessment of my solar systems performance vrs. settings. To be updated., David
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Re: another temp sensor question

Postby blackswan555 on Sun Apr 17, 2011 2:43 am

I do not "know" your batteries, But I would expect to see more like 1.270 `s as a fully charged SG,
I would do a proper EQ first, this will tell you what the real "charged" SG is, Then a bit of a balancing act, I would first use all day absorb, Due to you having plenty of panels, I think it may be a little much at that voltage, So keep a close eye on water useage, If it is a bit much, back the voltage down a notch.
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Re: another temp sensor question

Postby tallgirl on Sun Apr 17, 2011 4:16 pm

David,

So, it sounds like you don't have a FLEXnet DC, which is unfortunate. It makes it impossible to figure out how much current is going into the batteries, and how much is going into the inverters.

My first observation is based on both the low amount of current when you reach "Absorb", as well as the low specific gravity -- Tim's right, you need to do a proper EQ and get the specific gravity values up to the manufacturer's recommended value. The most common symptom of sulfation is easily reaching "Absorb", but not holding the charge. Low specific gravity confirms that.

My recommendation is to start a series of 3 hours EQs, every chance you get, for the next week. You have more than enough PV, if you're reaching "Absorb" at 9:30am. In the alternative, I'd raise the Absorb voltage by 1.2 volts for the next week, taking specific gravity readings each day before "Float" ends.

(Edited to add ...)

I went back and read one of Kent's posts on another thread. What is the maximum charging rate you are charging with? Your peak current is the current when you reach "Absorb" and the most I've ever seen you mention is on the order of 1,200 watts, which is really pretty low, especially with your usage -- that's normally a pretty good indication that the batteries are heavily sulfated, but your other responses make that sound unlikely. Kent mentioned that the maximum you should be able to get is on the order of 130 amps, which is entirely too much to be putting into the batteries you've got.

Without a FLEXnet DC, getting net current is pretty hard with just a Mate and WattPlot and net current and state of charge is really what matters with battery charging problems.
Last edited by tallgirl on Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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