GVFX3648 not staying in Support

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Beechigby
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GVFX3648 not staying in Support

Post by Beechigby » Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:35 am

We have a client that has a single GVFX3648 and oval Mate. Inverter has solar available and a low load on AC outputIt is connected to grid, but is in "nonGT"mode
has a brand new battery (2 banks of Concorde PVX2580L 48Vdc,258Ahr each) and 2.6Kw solar.
there should be a way to keep it in Support so it doesnt use grid power to power inverter subpanel loads when sun is out and producing enough, correct?

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EA6LE-ONE
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My RE system: System 1:
MATE3s, 3 x Radian GS8048A,
4 x FLEXmax 100, HUB10,
2 x EnergyCell 48V 2700RE,
1 x FLEXnet DC, 4 x FLEXware ICS Plus,
54 x PANASONIC VBHN325SA17 325W

System 2:
MATE3s, 2 x VFX3648,
2 x FLEXmax 100, HUB10
1 x EnergyCell 48V 2700RE,
1 x FLEXnet DC, 2 x FLEXware ICS
21 x PANASONIC VBHN325SA17 325W
Location: Providenciales, Turks & Caicos Isl.

Re: GVFX3648 not staying in Support

Post by EA6LE-ONE » Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:16 am

there is no support mode for GVFX3648. you can set the voltages for cut in and out that should do what you need. I did the settings on my inverters like that and they do start charging the batteries when voltage goes under 48V but many times I had to drop the AC manually as was not doing it automatically with the old mate(oval). if you have the mate3s then might be fine.

Beechigby
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Re: GVFX3648 not staying in Support

Post by Beechigby » Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:28 am

I thought there was
there must be a way to utilize the PV during the day, w/o drawing the bats down from float?, 50 or 52Vdc?
I must remain grid connected so Inverter AC output (subpanel) loads have power at nite from grid, not bats

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EA6LE-ONE
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Posts: 282
Joined: Tue May 05, 2020 7:51 am
My RE system: System 1:
MATE3s, 3 x Radian GS8048A,
4 x FLEXmax 100, HUB10,
2 x EnergyCell 48V 2700RE,
1 x FLEXnet DC, 4 x FLEXware ICS Plus,
54 x PANASONIC VBHN325SA17 325W

System 2:
MATE3s, 2 x VFX3648,
2 x FLEXmax 100, HUB10
1 x EnergyCell 48V 2700RE,
1 x FLEXnet DC, 2 x FLEXware ICS
21 x PANASONIC VBHN325SA17 325W
Location: Providenciales, Turks & Caicos Isl.

Re: GVFX3648 not staying in Support

Post by EA6LE-ONE » Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:30 am

GVFX3648 is off-grid, no grid features. play with the cut out voltages and cut in and try to have the charger on inverter turned off.

fcwlp
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My RE system: GS8048A, FM80 w/3,600 W PV Fixed, FM80 w/2,700W on Zomeworks tracker, Mate3, 24 Trojan 2V L16 1100AH @ C20, Grid-Tied with Kohler 14RESA LPG Generator and MEP-803 Diesel if needed
I also install and maintain grid-tied and off-grid systems, details will be given for these system if required
Location: 80 miles NE of Phoenix at 5500'

Re: GVFX3648 not staying in Support

Post by fcwlp » Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:45 pm

EA6LE-ONE wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:16 am
there is no support mode for GVFX3648.
EA6LE-ONE wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:30 am
GVFX3648 is off-grid, no grid features.
The GVFX series does not have the support mode, however the GVFX series is fully grid-interactive. I have a client with a dual GVFX3648 who is selling to the grid. The VFXR and Radian series introduced the support mode.

I would recommend taking a look at the battery charging voltages between the CC and GVFX3648. As it is a 48V system, program the CC settings 0.4V higher than the inverter settings for absorb and float. This should force the CC to stay active versus using the grid. You should also calibrate the voltages of the CC and inverter.

Beechigby
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Re: GVFX3648 not staying in Support

Post by Beechigby » Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:17 pm

It is true tho, that if I enabled sell on the GVFX3648 with the oval Mate, I would power the load on the subpanel, then supply the main panel (if enough sun ) and then sell final excess to grid, yes?
I thought that with "no sell" it would at least power the inverter subpanel (AC output) if bats full

fcwlp
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My RE system: GS8048A, FM80 w/3,600 W PV Fixed, FM80 w/2,700W on Zomeworks tracker, Mate3, 24 Trojan 2V L16 1100AH @ C20, Grid-Tied with Kohler 14RESA LPG Generator and MEP-803 Diesel if needed
I also install and maintain grid-tied and off-grid systems, details will be given for these system if required
Location: 80 miles NE of Phoenix at 5500'

Re: GVFX3648 not staying in Support

Post by fcwlp » Sat Jun 13, 2020 4:23 pm

Beechigby wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:17 pm
It is true tho, that if I enabled sell on the GVFX3648 with the oval Mate, I would power the load on the subpanel, then supply the main panel (if enough sun ) and then sell final excess to grid, yes?
My client with a GVFX3648, originally had a Mate2 and was powering his critical load panel and selling the excess to the grid. Is the customer authorized to sell back to the grid?
Beechigby wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:17 pm
I thought that with "no sell" it would at least power the inverter subpanel (AC output) if bats full
This should also happen. Check the voltage settings as described in my previous post.

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Re: GVFX3648 not staying in Support

Post by Beechigby » Sun Jun 14, 2020 4:38 am

thanks
ill get that done, and calibrate and let you know

jnh
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My RE system: GVFX-3524, FM-80+FM-60, ~4.9kW PV in mixed panels on movable platforms, 415 Ah AGMs @ 24V, 350Ah @ 12V, Hub4, Mate, FNDC, Brultech GEM 32-ch AC datalogger, Midnite E-Panel, homebrew DC-DC crossfeed to 12V system, Honda EU-1000i, Iota DLS-27-25
Location: St. Augustine, FL, US

Re: GVFX3648 not staying in Support

Post by jnh » Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:29 am

So long as sell-back is disabled on a GVFX, the inverter will only supply AC power when disconnected from the grid, whether via a manual or automatic (e,g, HBX-initiated) AC DROP command from the Mate, or from having automatically switched to standalone mode due to a grid outage. In "no sell" mode it becomes essentially equivalent to a VFX (non-G) model, except with more exacting requirements for AC-in power quality. It can send either grid power or its own AC power to the subpanel (AC-out terminal), but not both at the same time -- when operating in off-grid/DROP mode, any surge in subpanel demand beyond available PV power must be supplied by the batteries, not the grid, and you also can't exceed the inverter's maximum output limit.

Look into configuring "HBX" mode on the Mate, to let it automatically take the subpanel off-grid during good sun conditions. This involves setting cut-in and cut-out setpoints based on battery voltage, with adjustable time delays. It will end up cycling the batteries to at least a minor degree, though.

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Re: GVFX3648 not staying in Support

Post by Beechigby » Tue Jun 16, 2020 7:52 am

ok
thank you
I actually did not know that
so much too learn

fcwlp
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Posts: 542
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My RE system: GS8048A, FM80 w/3,600 W PV Fixed, FM80 w/2,700W on Zomeworks tracker, Mate3, 24 Trojan 2V L16 1100AH @ C20, Grid-Tied with Kohler 14RESA LPG Generator and MEP-803 Diesel if needed
I also install and maintain grid-tied and off-grid systems, details will be given for these system if required
Location: 80 miles NE of Phoenix at 5500'

Re: GVFX3648 not staying in Support

Post by fcwlp » Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:27 am

Beechigby wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 7:52 am
ok
thank you
I actually did not know that
so much too learn
I did not either. Helps to have someone who has lived with the system.

twoguesses
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My RE system: 42 Sharp ne-165u1 panels, 2 gvfx3648, 3 MX60's 48V Battery bank - Grid Tie
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Re: GVFX3648 not staying in Support

Post by twoguesses » Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:19 am

Not exactly related but figured I'd post a reply anyhow since my post in grid tie seems to be stuck....

Finally have some funds to get my Gird-Tied solar system back up and functional (came with the property and has been inoperable for at least 3 years). The system itself was installed back in 2005. It was probably inoperable for years before but I came along in 2017 but I don't know how long. I think this is all first generation stuff as the documentation says things like...."you WILL be able to stack 10 inverters." I have a master/slave configuration (looks like it was the only available config at the time). Anyway after getting my new battery bank up and DC power to the system. I powered on the inverters and neither fan spun up. Sure enough a Fan error is being thrown. I'm just wondering if there are other upgrades folks would recommend while I have these things cracked open? I have a ticket in with outback on where to source the fans but i'm not sure i'll actually get to talk to someone. Last time i opened a ticket I got an e-mail that didn't address my question and no further communication. Figured I'd ask the wisdom of the forum for any recommendations.

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EA6LE-ONE
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My RE system: System 1:
MATE3s, 3 x Radian GS8048A,
4 x FLEXmax 100, HUB10,
2 x EnergyCell 48V 2700RE,
1 x FLEXnet DC, 4 x FLEXware ICS Plus,
54 x PANASONIC VBHN325SA17 325W

System 2:
MATE3s, 2 x VFX3648,
2 x FLEXmax 100, HUB10
1 x EnergyCell 48V 2700RE,
1 x FLEXnet DC, 2 x FLEXware ICS
21 x PANASONIC VBHN325SA17 325W
Location: Providenciales, Turks & Caicos Isl.

Re: GVFX3648 not staying in Support

Post by EA6LE-ONE » Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:15 pm

For one of my inverters i got a PC fan, used a 12V power supply and install it in front of air vent for the internal fan. it works with no problem, just the error red led on inverter.
I did buy a replacement fan on eBay. Haven't install it yet as is left at the old house until the batteries will die.

User avatar
EA6LE-ONE
Forum Guru
Posts: 282
Joined: Tue May 05, 2020 7:51 am
My RE system: System 1:
MATE3s, 3 x Radian GS8048A,
4 x FLEXmax 100, HUB10,
2 x EnergyCell 48V 2700RE,
1 x FLEXnet DC, 4 x FLEXware ICS Plus,
54 x PANASONIC VBHN325SA17 325W

System 2:
MATE3s, 2 x VFX3648,
2 x FLEXmax 100, HUB10
1 x EnergyCell 48V 2700RE,
1 x FLEXnet DC, 2 x FLEXware ICS
21 x PANASONIC VBHN325SA17 325W
Location: Providenciales, Turks & Caicos Isl.

Re: GVFX3648 not staying in Support

Post by EA6LE-ONE » Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:17 pm

this one might work for your inveter:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Outback-Power- ... SwGVFcBWYb

twoguesses
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My RE system: 42 Sharp ne-165u1 panels, 2 gvfx3648, 3 MX60's 48V Battery bank - Grid Tie
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Re: GVFX3648 not staying in Support

Post by twoguesses » Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:38 pm

Great thanks for the suggestions. I've read some posts about upgrading firmware for these being a hardware thing and I was thinking about doing that but I guess it wouldn't really get me much. Got an old PC here to cannibalize so i think i'll try the computer fan idea first. Sounds like it doesn't get rid of the error but at least the inverter may do something. The Master isn't seeing the AC input and i figured it was because of the FAN error but if a PC fan works maybe that's not the case. I know the AC is hot. Anyway I'll give it a try.....when the fans didn't come on i just shut them down as i didn't want them to get too hot (been in the 90's here lately). Frankly I'm not trying to dump to much $$ into these just to find out they're toast so this is good info......

Thanks Again..............

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Re: GVFX3648 not staying in Support

Post by Mike Curran » Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:54 am

jnh wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:29 am
So long as sell-back is disabled on a GVFX, the inverter will only supply AC power when disconnected from the grid, whether via a manual or automatic (e,g, HBX-initiated) AC DROP command from the Mate, or from having automatically switched to standalone mode due to a grid outage. In "no sell" mode it becomes essentially equivalent to a VFX (non-G) model, except with more exacting requirements for AC-in power quality. It can send either grid power or its own AC power to the subpanel (AC-out terminal), but not both at the same time -- when operating in off-grid/DROP mode, any surge in subpanel demand beyond available PV power must be supplied by the batteries, not the grid, and you also can't exceed the inverter's maximum output limit.

Look into configuring "HBX" mode on the Mate, to let it automatically take the subpanel off-grid during good sun conditions. This involves setting cut-in and cut-out setpoints based on battery voltage, with adjustable time delays. It will end up cycling the batteries to at least a minor degree, though.
I'm probably misunderstanding your post, and please correct me if so, but I did an experiment to verify (or disprove) what you're saying.

I shut off all PV input to my system and set the AC input type to generator (using the Mate3s, this is equivalent to setting the Mate to No Sell). The attached photo (link) of my Mate3s screen shows I'm still buying from the grid. Is this in line with what you're saying? Thanks.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mvC-FR ... p=drivesdk

Edit: I apologize to anyone who tried to view this link and were unable. I had link sharing turned off, it's on now.
http://www.tigoenergy.com/site.php?95b2dca2-ca6c
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221

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Re: GVFX3648 not staying in Support

Post by Beechigby » Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:44 pm

Hi Mike;
Hi All
this system was new in 2007, there does not seem to be a HBX mode on the tan oval Mate. the inverter is GVFX3648, 2600w PV, new 500Amphr AGM bat
the system is set to "No Sell"
is it not possible to use PV and Bat during day to power Inverter AC output loads? even w/o grid help (that would be support, right?)
thanks

jnh
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My RE system: GVFX-3524, FM-80+FM-60, ~4.9kW PV in mixed panels on movable platforms, 415 Ah AGMs @ 24V, 350Ah @ 12V, Hub4, Mate, FNDC, Brultech GEM 32-ch AC datalogger, Midnite E-Panel, homebrew DC-DC crossfeed to 12V system, Honda EU-1000i, Iota DLS-27-25
Location: St. Augustine, FL, US

Re: GVFX3648 not staying in Support

Post by jnh » Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:17 pm

Beechigby wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:44 pm
Hi Mike;
Hi All
this system was new in 2007, there does not seem to be a HBX mode on the tan oval Mate. the inverter is GVFX3648, 2600w PV, new 500Amphr AGM bat
the system is set to "No Sell"
is it not possible to use PV and Bat during day to power Inverter AC output loads? even w/o grid help (that would be support, right?)
thanks
My Mate is the tan oval one also (though sent in for an upgrade in 2012 to add Flexnet DC support). The menu steps to reach HBX are ADV->(141 password)->MATE, then HBX should be listed first on the first menu page. You might have expected to find this under the FX tree rather than MATE, but HBX power-switching is actually controlled within the Mate itself, which is why the option is where it is.

Below is a crude ASCII-art illustration of the AC power switching & metering connections on all *FX inverters, as I understand them, which may help in visualizing the power flows. Note that whenever the *FX is connected to the grid for any reason, AC-In and AC-Out are bonded together by the closed relay contacts I labeled "sw1". With grid-tie disabled, the only times both sw1 and sw2 would normally be closed at the same time would be when charging batteries from grid or generator, essentially running the inverter main transformer backwards. Running on inverter power without selling, whether triggered manually (via AC DROP with INV set to ON) or by HBX, requires going off-grid by opening "sw1" at the same time "sw2" is closed.

With SETUP->FX->INPUT->ac_transfer_control set to GEN rather than Grid on a G*FX, however, there is an option at ADV->FX->(page2)->GEN->ac2_gen_support that's intended to help small generators start or run larger loads, by blending in power from batteries/PV whenever power demand exceeds the ac2_gen_input_limit amperage setting.

I think this option was never officially supported on GTFX/GVFX inverters, perhaps because it requires a very clean power source, such as an inverter-based generator (Honda EU or Yamaha EF series). I haven't tested it myself, but have seen a Youtube video where someone demonstrates it in action with an EU2000i.

This probably wouldn't be helpful for what you're trying to do though. Rather than supplying as much PV power as possible without actually backfeeding (operating in pseudo-'Sell' mode while ensuring current across the M1 ammeter never goes negative), it does the opposite, using AC-In (generator or grid) power up to a set amperage limit, then using PV+Bat only to cover any excess demand. I think the intention was to have this enabled while charging batteries from a genset, which requires also running loads from generator unless you use an outboard charger (since charging and inverting share the same power conversion circuitry, so an FX can't do both at once). The gen_support mode would let it briefly shift from charging back to inverting to cover, say a large motor's start-up surge.

Code: Select all

              sell  buy
                <--->+     /
  AC IN o________(M1)_____/  o_________.____o AC OUT
                          sw1          |
                                       |  sw1 = pass-through relay
               chg   inv               |  sw2 = inverter/charger relay
    Hi-V         <--->+    /           |
       OOOOOO_____(M2)____/  o_________|  M1 = ammeter 1: positive="buy", negative="sell"
       ======             sw2             M2 = ammeter 2: positive="invert", negative="charge"
       OOOOOO main
    Lo-V  ||  transformer
          ||
     [MOSFET BANK]----[inverter/charger control circuitry]
          ||
    [CAPACITOR BANK]
          ||
          oo
    battery terminals
A proper Grid-oriented Support mode didn't exist until GridZero was added with the later Radian and FXR models.

Beechigby
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Re: GVFX3648 not staying in Support

Post by Beechigby » Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:07 am

thank you
Ill look into that.

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Re: GVFX3648 not staying in Support

Post by Beechigby » Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:28 pm

Having turned on HBX on Mate, should I then be turning off Inverters charger on the 3rd push of the AC In Hot Key?
If i dont turn Charger off, wont it charge bats as soon as HBX reconnects to grid at HBX Reconnect Vdc (set to 48.8 for .5hr)

jnh
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Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2007 11:56 am
My RE system: GVFX-3524, FM-80+FM-60, ~4.9kW PV in mixed panels on movable platforms, 415 Ah AGMs @ 24V, 350Ah @ 12V, Hub4, Mate, FNDC, Brultech GEM 32-ch AC datalogger, Midnite E-Panel, homebrew DC-DC crossfeed to 12V system, Honda EU-1000i, Iota DLS-27-25
Location: St. Augustine, FL, US

Re: GVFX3648 not staying in Support

Post by jnh » Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:17 pm

Beechigby wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:28 pm
Having turned on HBX on Mate, should I then be turning off Inverters charger on the 3rd push of the AC In Hot Key?
If i dont turn Charger off, wont it charge bats as soon as HBX reconnects to grid at HBX Reconnect Vdc (set to 48.8 for .5hr)
Yes, you'll normally want to have the charger turned off, and try to arrange HBX set-points so that each day's renewable energy intake roughly balances your total consumption (including immediate use of energy as it's coming in during the day, plus any battery-charging needs). You can always turn the charger back on temporarily after an extended outage or deeper than expected discharge, but I believe the G*FX will do this automatically if the voltage drops low enough, below its "Rebulk" setpoint.

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