Outback equipment/lithium battery compatibility

General Talk

Moderators: OutBack, OutBack Moderator Team

raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 2993
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Outback equipment/lithium battery compatibility

Post by raysun » Tue May 26, 2020 10:21 pm

Outback published an app note on lithium battery integration in which there is a compatibility list:

Equipment Compatibility

Inverters
SkyBox: All versions compatible
Radian 8048A/4048A: All versions compatible
Radian 7048E/3048E: Firmware versions 001.005.003 and higher are compatible
Radian 8048/4048: Not compatible
FXR series: All versions compatible
GTFX/GVFX/GFX series: Not compatible
M-series: Not compatible

Charge Controllers
FM Series: All versions compatible
MX Series: Not compatible

The list does not elaborate on why certain equipment is not compatible. Also, some older gear, like the FX series inverters are not listed at all.

I assume the incompatible inverters are primarily due to battery voltage limitations, namely the Battery Protection Cut Out and Cut In voltages.

Are there other factors?
Attachments
lithium_app_note (2).pdf
(165.85 KiB) Downloaded 96 times

raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 2993
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Outback equipment/lithium battery compatibility

Post by raysun » Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:29 am

I'm looking into a SimpliPhi battery for my existing FlexPower1 system. I have a 2nd FM80 and 6kW of PV arrays total.

3 SimpliPhi 3.8kW 48V monoblocks will meet the system capacity, peak power, and charging requirements.

Looking at all the documentation, the FX3048T inverter *should* work with be battery by using the FNDC Aux relay driving the Inverter shutdown sense terminal to set Low Battery Cutout and High Battery Cutout parameters.

Is there anything else I should be looking at for this setup?

sodamo
Forum Czar
Posts: 843
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:55 am
My RE system: Totally off grid - Hamakua side, Big Island, Hi

36 Trina 280 & 16 Phono 250 in 48 volt array (fixed) 14080w
Radians GG8048/GS4048 w GSLCs
4 FM 80 charge controllers
Hub 10.3
FNDC w/3 shunts
Mate 3s
OpticsRE - MMKL - Ninole Hi
12 SimpliPhi 3.8
14Kw Kohler 14RESA Propane

Charging Only
2FX3048T
Hub
FNDC. - shared shunt feeds from Radian FNDC
Mate 3s
10Kw MEP 803a Military gen

Honda EU7000i

Davis VantagePro2 Wx Station
On line at: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KHININOL2
Location: Ninole, Hi

Re: Outback equipment/lithium battery compatibility

Post by sodamo » Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:15 am

I have FX3048s in my system, but charge only. No problems. Asyou noted a difference in the LBCO, but I suspect that won’t be a problem for you. A bit more than 6 months in I really like my SimpliPhis.
David
Please visit http://vacation.ninolehawaii.com

jbakker
Forum Guru
Posts: 221
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:47 am
My RE system: 2 VFX3648 Inverters 2 FM60 150VDC Charge Controllers Mate3 3.4 KW of panels 15kw JC Onan NG Generator made in 1975 I love that generator almost as much as my wife.
7 banks of 14 cells each from a 2017 Chevy Volt. Parallel for the AMP Hour. 7 Chinese made BMS systems.
Location: Goderich Ontario Canada

Re: Outback equipment/lithium battery compatibility

Post by jbakker » Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:04 am

I run 2 VFX3648 units and a 2017 Chevy Volt Lithium Battery.

No problems with charging the battery bank. No issues with the low battery cut out either.

It did take some time to get the settings correct for the battery.

Still looking for a second-volt battery to add capacity to the system or possibly changing out to CALB prismatic 200 ah cells.

Not sure what way to go.

The system has been working great.

In regards to the older equipment supporting lithium cells, I would say do your research. The BMS systems will cut out before permanent damage is done.

raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 2993
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Outback equipment/lithium battery compatibility

Post by raysun » Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:16 am

sodamo wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:15 am
I have FX3048s in my system, but charge only. No problems. Asyou noted a difference in the LBCO, but I suspect that won’t be a problem for you. A bit more than 6 months in I really like my SimpliPhis.
Thanks! It looks like I can satisfy all the operational/warranty requirements in a straight-forward manner.

In fact, it seemed too simple. I'm always suspicious when something seems too easy. ;)

I'll be making this switch when the budget committee approves the proposal.

raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 2993
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Outback equipment/lithium battery compatibility

Post by raysun » Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:23 am

jbakker wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:04 am
I run 2 VFX3648 units and a 2017 Chevy Volt Lithium Battery.

No problems with charging the battery bank. No issues with the low battery cut out either.

It did take some time to get the settings correct for the battery.

Still looking for a second-volt battery to add capacity to the system or possibly changing out to CALB prismatic 200 ah cells.

Not sure what way to go.

The system has been working great.

In regards to the older equipment supporting lithium cells, I would say do your research. The BMS systems will cut out before permanent damage is done.
I've been studying this for a while now. I'm pretty sure I have all the operational and configuration parameters worked out.

I'm looking for a sanity check, and anything that might have been overlooked.

My intent is to make sure (as much as humanly possible) that no external events cause the BMS to fault with a cutout event.

Before retiring the current battery, I'm going back through an exercise of recalibrating each voltage measuring device in the system.

Good to hear your repurposed Leaf batteries are doing well!

provo
Forum Czar
Posts: 531
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:34 pm
My RE system: Sixteen Evergreen EC-120
(4 strings, total 1920W)
Eight Rolls S-550 (2 strings, total ~800Ah @ 24V)
One FM80
One VFXR3524A
Hub 10
Mate3s
FNDC and Trimetric
Location: Sierra foothills

Re: Outback equipment/lithium battery compatibility

Post by provo » Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:58 am

raysun wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:29 am
I'm looking into a SimpliPhi battery for my existing FlexPower1 system. I have a 2nd FM80 and 6kW of PV arrays total.

3 SimpliPhi 3.8kW 48V monoblocks will meet the system capacity, peak power, and charging requirements.

Looking at all the documentation, the FX3048T inverter *should* work with the battery by using the FNDC Aux relay driving the Inverter shutdown sense terminal to set Low Battery Cutout and High Battery Cutout parameters.
Just in case I ever take the plunge into lithium, could you explain that last part about the Aux relay? I assume it's to set hard limits on the voltage, both low and high (in addition to what the BMS does?), but how does it work?

Mike Curran
Forum Emperor
Posts: 1804
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:28 pm
My RE system: Outback - Garage roof:
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 - replaced MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
- 2 grid-tied GVFX3524's classic stacked for 120/240VAC (2007)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS, OpticsRE. Tigo Energy ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 Talesun 275W in series (DC array input to SB inverter/charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input (manual switch during grid outage only) from 14 Talesun 275W,
Enphase M215 microinverters, normally direct grid tied

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: Outback equipment/lithium battery compatibility

Post by Mike Curran » Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:59 am

I'll be making this switch when the budget committee approves the proposal.
I volunteer to be an ad hoc committee member, if you need any support on the vote.
http://www.tigoenergy.com/site.php?95b2dca2-ca6c
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221

raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 2993
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Outback equipment/lithium battery compatibility

Post by raysun » Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:32 am

provo wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:58 am
raysun wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:29 am
I'm looking into a SimpliPhi battery for my existing FlexPower1 system. I have a 2nd FM80 and 6kW of PV arrays total.

3 SimpliPhi 3.8kW 48V monoblocks will meet the system capacity, peak power, and charging requirements.

Looking at all the documentation, the FX3048T inverter *should* work with the battery by using the FNDC Aux relay driving the Inverter shutdown sense terminal to set Low Battery Cutout and High Battery Cutout parameters.
Just in case I ever take the plunge into lithium, could you explain that last part about the Aux relay? I assume it's to set hard limits on the voltage, both low and high (in addition to what the BMS does?), but how does it work?
There is an Aux function on the FNDC that can be triggered by 4 events: low battery voltage, heigh voltage, low state of charge, high state of charge. Theres also a low event delay time and high ecent delay time.

I'll be setting it similar to this:
Screenshot_20200602-052741_Chrome.jpg
The leads from the relay will be wired to the Inverter On/Off pins to shut the Inverter down on a battery voltage event.

JRHill
Forum Czar
Posts: 929
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:12 am
My RE system: VFX 3648, FM80, 3k panels, Mate3, FNDC (retired), 8ea L16 mixed. Wonderful wife.

Re: Outback equipment/lithium battery compatibility

Post by JRHill » Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:46 am

raysun wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:32 am
provo wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:58 am
raysun wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:29 am
I'm looking into a SimpliPhi battery for my existing FlexPower1 system. I have a 2nd FM80 and 6kW of PV arrays total.

3 SimpliPhi 3.8kW 48V monoblocks will meet the system capacity, peak power, and charging requirements.

Looking at all the documentation, the FX3048T inverter *should* work with the battery by using the FNDC Aux relay driving the Inverter shutdown sense terminal to set Low Battery Cutout and High Battery Cutout parameters.
Just in case I ever take the plunge into lithium, could you explain that last part about the Aux relay? I assume it's to set hard limits on the voltage, both low and high (in addition to what the BMS does?), but how does it work?
There is an Aux function on the FNDC that can be triggered by 4 events: low battery voltage, heigh voltage, low state of charge, high state of charge. Theres also a low event delay time and high ecent delay time.

I'll be setting it similar to this:

Screenshot_20200602-052741_Chrome.jpg

The leads from the relay will be wired to the Inverter On/Off pins to shut the Inverter down on a battery voltage event.
I understand how shutting down the inverter will help with a low voltage event but that wouldn't help with a high voltage situation - unless the generator is charging. Or am I missing something?

raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 2993
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Outback equipment/lithium battery compatibility

Post by raysun » Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:14 am

JRHill wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:46 am
raysun wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:32 am
provo wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:58 am


Just in case I ever take the plunge into lithium, could you explain that last part about the Aux relay? I assume it's to set hard limits on the voltage, both low and high (in addition to what the BMS does?), but how does it work?
There is an Aux function on the FNDC that can be triggered by 4 events: low battery voltage, heigh voltage, low state of charge, high state of charge. Theres also a low event delay time and high ecent delay time.

I'll be setting it similar to this:

Screenshot_20200602-052741_Chrome.jpg

The leads from the relay will be wired to the Inverter On/Off pins to shut the Inverter down on a battery voltage event.
I understand how shutting down the inverter will help with a low voltage event but that wouldn't help with a high voltage situation - unless the generator is charging. Or am I missing something?
You are only missing the legalese in the warranty, which is vague on the point, but specifies a requirement for LBCO and HBCO.

I was thinking a high voltage cutout on the charge controllers would be needed as well, and the warranty does specify its null and void-ness if external equipment drive the battery protection to cutoff. I see nothing in either OB app note, or SP integration guide that addresses this issue.

Still trying to figure out what I'm missing...

provo
Forum Czar
Posts: 531
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:34 pm
My RE system: Sixteen Evergreen EC-120
(4 strings, total 1920W)
Eight Rolls S-550 (2 strings, total ~800Ah @ 24V)
One FM80
One VFXR3524A
Hub 10
Mate3s
FNDC and Trimetric
Location: Sierra foothills

Re: Outback equipment/lithium battery compatibility

Post by provo » Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:15 am

raysun wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:14 am

You are only missing the legalese in the warranty, which is vague on the point, but specifies a requirement for LBCO and HBCO.

I was thinking a high voltage cutout on the charge controllers would be needed as well, and the warranty does specify its null and void-ness if external equipment drive the battery protection to cutoff. I see nothing in either OB app note, or SP integration guide that addresses this issue.
So the BMS would offer the same protection? But it voids the warranty if the protection is used? Would your use of the Aux relay also void the warranty if it were ever used?

Those SP folks are jumpy!

raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 2993
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Outback equipment/lithium battery compatibility

Post by raysun » Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:35 am

provo wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:15 am
raysun wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:14 am

You are only missing the legalese in the warranty, which is vague on the point, but specifies a requirement for LBCO and HBCO.

I was thinking a high voltage cutout on the charge controllers would be needed as well, and the warranty does specify its null and void-ness if external equipment drive the battery protection to cutoff. I see nothing in either OB app note, or SP integration guide that addresses this issue.
So the BMS would offer the same protection? But it voids the warranty if the protection is used? Would your use of the Aux relay also void the warranty if it were ever used?

Those SP folks are jumpy!
Any company that publishes technical specs in their warranty, and demands access to your system configuration and logs, is pretty much predisposed to honoring said warranty in a very narrow way, IMO.

But then again, in the competitive world of battery technology I'd wonder if they will even be around to honor it in 5 - 10 years time.

Exide just declared Chapter 11 bankruptcy and plans to sell its North American operations.

sodamo
Forum Czar
Posts: 843
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:55 am
My RE system: Totally off grid - Hamakua side, Big Island, Hi

36 Trina 280 & 16 Phono 250 in 48 volt array (fixed) 14080w
Radians GG8048/GS4048 w GSLCs
4 FM 80 charge controllers
Hub 10.3
FNDC w/3 shunts
Mate 3s
OpticsRE - MMKL - Ninole Hi
12 SimpliPhi 3.8
14Kw Kohler 14RESA Propane

Charging Only
2FX3048T
Hub
FNDC. - shared shunt feeds from Radian FNDC
Mate 3s
10Kw MEP 803a Military gen

Honda EU7000i

Davis VantagePro2 Wx Station
On line at: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KHININOL2
Location: Ninole, Hi

Re: Outback equipment/lithium battery compatibility

Post by sodamo » Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:53 am

Small comfort in many warranties - very small. About all we can do is pick a decent product and hope. Thatsaid, no complaints about OB honoring warranty.

My CFO is still pleased we bit the bullet last year and not hesitant to remind me it was a good decision.
David
Please visit http://vacation.ninolehawaii.com

provo
Forum Czar
Posts: 531
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:34 pm
My RE system: Sixteen Evergreen EC-120
(4 strings, total 1920W)
Eight Rolls S-550 (2 strings, total ~800Ah @ 24V)
One FM80
One VFXR3524A
Hub 10
Mate3s
FNDC and Trimetric
Location: Sierra foothills

Re: Outback equipment/lithium battery compatibility

Post by provo » Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:55 am

raysun wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:35 am

Any company that publishes technical specs in their warranty, and demands access to your system configuration and logs, is pretty much predisposed to honoring said warranty in a very narrow way, IMO.
Sounds like they don't trust their own product. Ahh, lead-acid -- "Serving your Battery Needs since 1859" \:D/

sodamo
Forum Czar
Posts: 843
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:55 am
My RE system: Totally off grid - Hamakua side, Big Island, Hi

36 Trina 280 & 16 Phono 250 in 48 volt array (fixed) 14080w
Radians GG8048/GS4048 w GSLCs
4 FM 80 charge controllers
Hub 10.3
FNDC w/3 shunts
Mate 3s
OpticsRE - MMKL - Ninole Hi
12 SimpliPhi 3.8
14Kw Kohler 14RESA Propane

Charging Only
2FX3048T
Hub
FNDC. - shared shunt feeds from Radian FNDC
Mate 3s
10Kw MEP 803a Military gen

Honda EU7000i

Davis VantagePro2 Wx Station
On line at: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KHININOL2
Location: Ninole, Hi

Re: Outback equipment/lithium battery compatibility

Post by sodamo » Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:02 am

provo wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:55 am
raysun wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:35 am

Any company that publishes technical specs in their warranty, and demands access to your system configuration and logs, is pretty much predisposed to honoring said warranty in a very narrow way, IMO.
Sounds like they don't trust their own product. Ahh, lead-acid -- "Serving your Battery Needs since 1859" \:D/
Even they have issues. My installer was a big Rolls proponent until warranty issues cropped up.
David
Please visit http://vacation.ninolehawaii.com

JRHill
Forum Czar
Posts: 929
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:12 am
My RE system: VFX 3648, FM80, 3k panels, Mate3, FNDC (retired), 8ea L16 mixed. Wonderful wife.

Re: Outback equipment/lithium battery compatibility

Post by JRHill » Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:27 am

raysun wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:35 am
provo wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:15 am
raysun wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:14 am

You are only missing the legalese in the warranty, which is vague on the point, but specifies a requirement for LBCO and HBCO.

I was thinking a high voltage cutout on the charge controllers would be needed as well, and the warranty does specify its null and void-ness if external equipment drive the battery protection to cutoff. I see nothing in either OB app note, or SP integration guide that addresses this issue.
So the BMS would offer the same protection? But it voids the warranty if the protection is used? Would your use of the Aux relay also void the warranty if it were ever used?

Those SP folks are jumpy!
Any company that publishes technical specs in their warranty, and demands access to your system configuration and logs, is pretty much predisposed to honoring said warranty in a very narrow way, IMO.

But then again, in the competitive world of battery technology I'd wonder if they will even be around to honor it in 5 - 10 years time.

Exide just declared Chapter 11 bankruptcy and plans to sell its North American operations.
I am watching this thread. Raysun, you must have the documentation/accreditation required for your install. Pictures and diagrams and charts and licenses and on and on for the SimpliPhi warranty.

Sodamo, you are is having great success. My hat is off to you.

Seriously I understand but DANG - should not the battery maintenance system should cover failures with the data?? If a failure I can't tolerate the batteries, if a warranty issue, sitting in a warehouse awaiting a determination while the system is without. I would be shut down without a batteries. So I should buy two banks JIC? Could some of you contribute your checks for this project for my success?

With the old FLAs and the like you can fail and still survive. Can you do that with the LI? I don't know.

provo
Forum Czar
Posts: 531
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:34 pm
My RE system: Sixteen Evergreen EC-120
(4 strings, total 1920W)
Eight Rolls S-550 (2 strings, total ~800Ah @ 24V)
One FM80
One VFXR3524A
Hub 10
Mate3s
FNDC and Trimetric
Location: Sierra foothills

Re: Outback equipment/lithium battery compatibility

Post by provo » Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:40 am

sodamo wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:02 am

Even they have issues. My installer was a big Rolls proponent until warranty issues cropped up.
I think that's just the combination of hyper-capitalism and lawyers, and applies equally to refrigerators, tires, etc etc. SimpliPhi (and any other Li-ion mfr) is claiming long lifetimes and demanding exorbitant prices without the track record to justify that.

sodamo
Forum Czar
Posts: 843
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:55 am
My RE system: Totally off grid - Hamakua side, Big Island, Hi

36 Trina 280 & 16 Phono 250 in 48 volt array (fixed) 14080w
Radians GG8048/GS4048 w GSLCs
4 FM 80 charge controllers
Hub 10.3
FNDC w/3 shunts
Mate 3s
OpticsRE - MMKL - Ninole Hi
12 SimpliPhi 3.8
14Kw Kohler 14RESA Propane

Charging Only
2FX3048T
Hub
FNDC. - shared shunt feeds from Radian FNDC
Mate 3s
10Kw MEP 803a Military gen

Honda EU7000i

Davis VantagePro2 Wx Station
On line at: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KHININOL2
Location: Ninole, Hi

Re: Outback equipment/lithium battery compatibility

Post by sodamo » Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:02 pm

One thing to note.
With my old Rolls system of 12 batts @ 4 volts a single failure brought down the entire system. With the Simpliphi I would think it would take something extremely catastrophic to take out the entire bank. Loss of individual units would still leave a functional bank just at reduced capacity. Each Simpliphi has own breaker/protection circuit. Actually guess mine is redundant in that each battery comes into own indivial breaker in combiner panel.
David
Please visit http://vacation.ninolehawaii.com

raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 2993
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Outback equipment/lithium battery compatibility

Post by raysun » Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:15 pm

Yes, lithium is a whole new ballgame. Too expensive, too twitchy, too much like an ideal battery to dismiss (as long as its shortcomings are overlooked.)

Good old FLA is still the value leader, as long as one is willing to deal with the maintenance. That's not aligned with my temperment, unfortunately. It's not even the drudgery, its the thought of the drudgery. No mental discipline I guess.

That being said, I spent infinitely more time trying to manage the magic balance needed to get decent service life out of a VRLA battery. In the end, I was not especially successful relative to expectations. 1500 cycles is OK, but I'm not asking anybody to throw a parade.

I'm willing to take the risky plunge into lithium for two reasons: fast charging times, and sealed cells. I'm not holding my breath for 10,000 cycles but if I get 5000 out of the battery, I'd be happy.

Of course, it depends on how good the product is, how well it can be realistically maintained, and luck.

raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 2993
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Outback equipment/lithium battery compatibility

Post by raysun » Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:19 pm

sodamo wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:02 pm
One thing to note.
With my old Rolls system of 12 batts @ 4 volts a single failure brought down the entire system. With the Simpliphi I would think it would take something extremely catastrophic to take out the entire bank. Loss of individual units would still leave a functional bank just at reduced capacity. Each Simpliphi has own breaker/protection circuit. Actually guess mine is redundant in that each battery comes into own indivial breaker in combiner panel.
Yes, the 48V form factor fits neatly into my setup. I'll be using three units, and can drop them right into my IBR-3-48 battery rack - one on each shelf, it already has compliant cabling, and a disconnect for each shelf.

JRHill
Forum Czar
Posts: 929
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:12 am
My RE system: VFX 3648, FM80, 3k panels, Mate3, FNDC (retired), 8ea L16 mixed. Wonderful wife.

Re: Outback equipment/lithium battery compatibility

Post by JRHill » Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:23 pm

raysun wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:15 pm
Yes, lithium is a whole new ballgame. Too expensive, too twitchy, too much like an ideal battery to dismiss (as long as its shortcomings are overlooked.)

Good old FLA is still the value leader, as long as one is willing to deal with the maintenance. That's not aligned with my temperment, unfortunately. It's not even the drudgery, its the thought of the drudgery. No mental discipline I guess.

That being said, I spent infinitely more time trying to manage the magic balance needed to get decent service life out of a VRLA battery. In the end, I was not especially successful relative to expectations. 1500 cycles is OK, but I'm not asking anybody to throw a parade.

I'm willing to take the risky plunge into lithium for two reasons: fast charging times, and sealed cells. I'm not holding my breath for 10,000 cycles but if I get 5000 out of the battery, I'd be happy.

Of course, it depends on how good the product is, how well it can be realistically maintained, and luck.
I'd still appreciate you microwaving your excess power to me. If not I will write Gov. Insley for a proclamation. It's not fair that you can do that and I won't do the same. You must share.

raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 2993
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Outback equipment/lithium battery compatibility

Post by raysun » Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:26 pm

You don't need no stinkin' Hawaiian microwaves. You just need to do this: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/ ... wn-mirrors

JRHill
Forum Czar
Posts: 929
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:12 am
My RE system: VFX 3648, FM80, 3k panels, Mate3, FNDC (retired), 8ea L16 mixed. Wonderful wife.

Re: Outback equipment/lithium battery compatibility

Post by JRHill » Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:57 pm

raysun wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:26 pm
You don't need no stinkin' Hawaiian microwaves. You just need to do this: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/ ... wn-mirrors
Yup. This is what I need: equal sun access. It doesn't matter that I built where I did. It's not my fault. It's the dang trees and canyon. They need to go. Plus with a grant I can put up mirrors on my neighbor's property across the canyon. He doesn't have a dang thing to say about it cause he has power lines, I don't. It should be a movement. So far it's a movement of one. If someone would join me we could double it instantly.

raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 2993
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Outback equipment/lithium battery compatibility

Post by raysun » Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:59 pm

JRHill wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:57 pm
raysun wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:26 pm
You don't need no stinkin' Hawaiian microwaves. You just need to do this: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/ ... wn-mirrors
Yup. This is what I need: equal sun access. It doesn't matter that I built where I did. It's not my fault. It's the dang trees and canyon. They need to go. Plus with a grant I can put up mirrors on my neighbor's property across the canyon. He doesn't have a dang thing to say about it cause he has power lines, I don't. It should be a movement. So far it's a movement of one. If someone would join me we could double it instantly.
ACCESS TO PHOTONS ISN'T A PRIVILEGE, ITS A RIGHT!

I'm having signs made up.

Post Reply